1 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:09,320 on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks 2 00:00:13,430 --> 00:00:11,610 with dr. Julie by she'll about her new 3 00:00:15,410 --> 00:00:13,440 book among mediums 4 00:00:18,650 --> 00:00:15,420 okay there's these people that report 5 00:00:21,080 --> 00:00:18,660 this condition will call it grief we 6 00:00:23,929 --> 00:00:21,090 treat this condition on a regular basis 7 00:00:26,269 --> 00:00:23,939 we send them to a talking psychologist 8 00:00:27,769 --> 00:00:26,279 or psychiatrist and that person talks 9 00:00:29,900 --> 00:00:27,779 tuck tuck tuck tuck tuck tuck tuck and 10 00:00:31,669 --> 00:00:29,910 then we measure afterwards and sometimes 11 00:00:34,729 --> 00:00:31,679 they're better sometimes they're not 12 00:00:36,620 --> 00:00:34,739 or we send them in and they get some 13 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:36,630 kind of Pharma logical treatment they 14 00:00:39,950 --> 00:00:37,890 get these little pills and they take 15 00:00:42,290 --> 00:00:39,960 them pop pop pop pop and they either get 16 00:00:44,930 --> 00:00:42,300 better or they don't and we measure that 17 00:00:47,090 --> 00:00:44,940 and I think what you've suggested is hey 18 00:00:49,279 --> 00:00:47,100 here's some other people that report 19 00:00:51,590 --> 00:00:49,289 that they have this reading with a 20 00:00:53,959 --> 00:00:51,600 medium and in the same way we're 21 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:53,969 measuring these other things we can 22 00:00:58,639 --> 00:00:56,370 measure in the same way whether or not 23 00:01:01,250 --> 00:00:58,649 they showed any improvement and this 24 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:01,260 grief experience they had after a 25 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:03,930 reading yeah and you know that's my 26 00:01:10,340 --> 00:01:06,570 training right it's drug trials and I 27 00:01:11,420 --> 00:01:10,350 designed a protocol and it is you know 28 00:01:13,730 --> 00:01:11,430 there's a control group and a treatment 29 00:01:15,170 --> 00:01:13,740 group just like a drug trial and except 30 00:01:18,289 --> 00:01:15,180 instead of a drug gets a mediumship 31 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:18,299 reading and I designed this very 32 00:01:22,550 --> 00:01:19,890 specific protocol using a standardized 33 00:01:25,609 --> 00:01:22,560 grief instrument and two different 34 00:01:27,350 --> 00:01:25,619 funders have not found it to be what 35 00:01:30,730 --> 00:01:27,360 they were looking for but it needs to 36 00:01:34,249 --> 00:01:30,740 get done so we're now in the process of 37 00:01:36,410 --> 00:01:34,259 reaching out to the public to try and 38 00:01:37,580 --> 00:01:36,420 get support for that study because it 39 00:01:50,649 --> 00:01:37,590 really needs to be done 40 00:01:54,469 --> 00:01:52,850 welcome to skeptic Oh where we explore 41 00:01:57,020 --> 00:01:54,479 controversial science with leading 42 00:01:59,030 --> 00:01:57,030 researchers thinkers and their critics 43 00:02:01,039 --> 00:01:59,040 I'm your host Alex Icarus and on this 44 00:02:04,070 --> 00:02:01,049 episode of skeptic oh we're going to 45 00:02:06,590 --> 00:02:04,080 look at mediums and medium communication 46 00:02:09,589 --> 00:02:06,600 research the best person to do that with 47 00:02:11,570 --> 00:02:09,599 as far as I know is dr. Julie by shell 48 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:11,580 from the wind bridge Institute who we've 49 00:02:15,530 --> 00:02:14,010 had on previously she has a new book 50 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:15,540 that you're gonna hear about titled 51 00:02:19,820 --> 00:02:18,090 among mediums but before we get to the 52 00:02:22,630 --> 00:02:19,830 interview I wanted to bring your 53 00:02:26,690 --> 00:02:22,640 attention to a blog that I ran across 54 00:02:28,940 --> 00:02:26,700 titled Paris psychotherapy ex very 55 00:02:31,729 --> 00:02:28,950 fascinating work by a guy named dr. 56 00:02:34,340 --> 00:02:31,739 Jerry gora who is a therapist in 57 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:34,350 Connecticut who focuses a lot of his 58 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:36,450 practice on helping people deal with 59 00:02:42,170 --> 00:02:39,810 various kinds of paranormal phenomena as 60 00:02:44,630 --> 00:02:42,180 you can imagine this is a much needed 61 00:02:46,309 --> 00:02:44,640 area of work and it's great to see 62 00:02:48,740 --> 00:02:46,319 people sticking their neck out and 63 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:48,750 trying to help in this area and the 64 00:02:51,979 --> 00:02:50,250 other reason to mention dr. Gorrie is he 65 00:02:54,770 --> 00:02:51,989 really does have an excellent blog I've 66 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:54,780 enjoyed reading it and I asked him to 67 00:03:01,009 --> 00:02:57,450 prepare a short introduction to himself 68 00:03:02,390 --> 00:03:01,019 in his blog and here it is hello Alex 69 00:03:04,069 --> 00:03:02,400 this is sceptical enthusiast 70 00:03:06,170 --> 00:03:04,079 psychotherapist and writer jelg aura 71 00:03:08,690 --> 00:03:06,180 first I want to thank you for your kudos 72 00:03:10,190 --> 00:03:08,700 on my blog in my latest article someone 73 00:03:11,660 --> 00:03:10,200 has orbited the paranormal field for a 74 00:03:13,699 --> 00:03:11,670 while now I'd have to say it's an honor 75 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:13,709 being invited to share here as I 76 00:03:17,330 --> 00:03:15,570 consider your show the very best sort of 77 00:03:19,910 --> 00:03:17,340 the NPR of alternative programming if 78 00:03:21,380 --> 00:03:19,920 you'll accept such a thing I'd also like 79 00:03:23,300 --> 00:03:21,390 to invite your listeners to check out my 80 00:03:24,860 --> 00:03:23,310 blog Paris psychotherapy ex where I 81 00:03:26,780 --> 00:03:24,870 write about my research and explore 82 00:03:29,090 --> 00:03:26,790 aspects of the paranormal puzzle among 83 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:29,100 other things as a psychotherapist who 84 00:03:33,500 --> 00:03:31,530 works primarily with family systems our 85 00:03:35,390 --> 00:03:33,510 bread and butter has come and learning 86 00:03:37,550 --> 00:03:35,400 to address problems by looking at the 87 00:03:39,199 --> 00:03:37,560 function of any symptom as its the 88 00:03:41,599 --> 00:03:39,209 symptoms which hold all the good stuff 89 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:41,609 expressing potential and exposing the 90 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:44,370 barriers transformation in my blog I do 91 00:03:48,020 --> 00:03:46,170 just pretty much the same thing but now 92 00:03:49,670 --> 00:03:48,030 I'm doing it with the unexplained my 93 00:03:52,220 --> 00:03:49,680 most recent article chasing ghosts from 94 00:03:54,259 --> 00:03:52,230 the outside in explore the psychodynamic 95 00:03:56,479 --> 00:03:54,269 roots of the Western anti experiential 96 00:03:58,310 --> 00:03:56,489 bias and theorizing institution of 97 00:04:00,259 --> 00:03:58,320 science itself could be nothing more 98 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:00,269 than a cultural reaction or a life 99 00:04:03,380 --> 00:04:02,370 jacket of sorts an expression that's 100 00:04:05,300 --> 00:04:03,390 rooted in our collect 101 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:05,310 fear of going deeper to experience your 102 00:04:09,559 --> 00:04:08,010 true interior nature's once again thanks 103 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:09,569 Alex for the opportunity and keep up the 104 00:04:13,250 --> 00:04:10,970 good work you're doing amazing things 105 00:04:14,809 --> 00:04:13,260 for those of you like to keep up with my 106 00:04:16,940 --> 00:04:14,819 research and get a look at my blog you 107 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:16,950 can find it at Paris psychotherapy X 108 00:04:22,970 --> 00:04:19,170 that's all one word para 109 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:22,980 psychotherapy X dot blog spot.com so be 110 00:04:26,930 --> 00:04:24,570 sure to check that out we'll have a link 111 00:04:29,780 --> 00:04:26,940 to it in the show notes but for now 112 00:04:33,980 --> 00:04:29,790 let's move on to my interview with dr. 113 00:04:35,450 --> 00:04:33,990 Julie by shal today we welcome dr. Julie 114 00:04:37,730 --> 00:04:35,460 behold a skeptic Oh 115 00:04:39,890 --> 00:04:37,740 as founder and head of research at the 116 00:04:42,380 --> 00:04:39,900 wind bridge Institute Julie is one of 117 00:04:45,380 --> 00:04:42,390 the world's leading researchers studying 118 00:04:47,840 --> 00:04:45,390 psychic mediums Julie holds a PhD in 119 00:04:50,030 --> 00:04:47,850 pharmacology and toxicology from the 120 00:04:53,950 --> 00:04:50,040 University of Arizona and is here to 121 00:04:57,820 --> 00:04:53,960 talk about her new book among mediums a 122 00:05:00,620 --> 00:04:57,830 scientists quest for answers dr. bhathal 123 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:00,630 welcome or I guess for those of us with 124 00:05:06,260 --> 00:05:03,210 a long memory I should say welcome back 125 00:05:10,310 --> 00:05:06,270 to skeptic oh thank you so much for 126 00:05:11,930 --> 00:05:10,320 having me okay yeah it's great so Julie 127 00:05:14,180 --> 00:05:11,940 you've written a wonderful little book 128 00:05:16,730 --> 00:05:14,190 here and it's not just me saying that 129 00:05:18,890 --> 00:05:16,740 you have some great endorsements for the 130 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:18,900 book as well you know where I thought we 131 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:23,250 might start is the story in the book 132 00:05:29,570 --> 00:05:26,010 about your very first reading because I 133 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:29,580 think it's not only in introduction into 134 00:05:34,870 --> 00:05:32,010 the way you came to research this topic 135 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:34,880 as a scientist but it also I think is 136 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:37,770 relatable for a lot of folks because 137 00:05:46,060 --> 00:05:39,570 it's the way that they come in contact 138 00:05:55,700 --> 00:05:51,380 story is detailed in great in the book 139 00:05:57,140 --> 00:05:55,710 but the bottom line is when I was in 140 00:06:00,350 --> 00:05:57,150 graduate school my mother committed 141 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:00,360 suicide and a couple years later the 142 00:06:06,260 --> 00:06:03,090 John Edward was very big that crossing 143 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:06,270 over show is very big on TV and in my 144 00:06:10,460 --> 00:06:08,130 background I you know like you said my 145 00:06:13,339 --> 00:06:10,470 degrees in this hard science and I was 146 00:06:15,110 --> 00:06:13,349 my family's from the Midwest and you 147 00:06:16,580 --> 00:06:15,120 know mediums was never something that we 148 00:06:16,970 --> 00:06:16,590 even I didn't even know what a medium 149 00:06:19,790 --> 00:06:16,980 was 150 00:06:24,290 --> 00:06:19,800 so I saw this guy on TV and the people 151 00:06:25,820 --> 00:06:24,300 looked moved and that they you know were 152 00:06:27,590 --> 00:06:25,830 the people on the show we're reporting 153 00:06:30,020 --> 00:06:27,600 that what he was saying was accurate so 154 00:06:31,340 --> 00:06:30,030 I thought well that's really interesting 155 00:06:34,820 --> 00:06:31,350 but you know I'm a scientist I would 156 00:06:38,570 --> 00:06:34,830 have to see it for myself so I got a 157 00:06:40,550 --> 00:06:38,580 reading and I had known a little bit 158 00:06:43,700 --> 00:06:40,560 about cold reading and the kinds of 159 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:43,710 things that a medium can guess just by 160 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:45,570 looking at you were talking with you and 161 00:06:52,280 --> 00:06:49,610 so I I knew to only say yes or no and 162 00:06:53,930 --> 00:06:52,290 and those kinds of things go ahead let 163 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:53,940 me interject a couple of things because 164 00:06:58,040 --> 00:06:56,010 you do a great job and tell a great 165 00:07:00,980 --> 00:06:58,050 story in the book about this reading and 166 00:07:03,950 --> 00:07:00,990 the lengths the to code to to prevent 167 00:07:06,650 --> 00:07:03,960 yourself from providing any of that kind 168 00:07:08,510 --> 00:07:06,660 of information to the to the medium 169 00:07:10,730 --> 00:07:08,520 which as you say people generally talk 170 00:07:13,340 --> 00:07:10,740 about cold reading where the medium is 171 00:07:15,500 --> 00:07:13,350 saying I see an S or is that an M and 172 00:07:18,350 --> 00:07:15,510 zit in your past or maybe in your future 173 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:18,360 so you were you were well-prepared for 174 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:20,730 that maybe even over prepared as you say 175 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:22,410 in your story and I guess the other 176 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:24,930 thing that struck me and I can attest to 177 00:07:30,260 --> 00:07:26,810 this from my own experience with mediums 178 00:07:31,850 --> 00:07:30,270 and similar to you you know when I first 179 00:07:34,100 --> 00:07:31,860 went and I kind of prepared myself and 180 00:07:36,110 --> 00:07:34,110 it's really not that hard to do right I 181 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:36,120 mean a lot of mediums I'd say even the 182 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:38,250 majority mediums aren't really fishing 183 00:07:44,510 --> 00:07:41,490 for that data as we con are led to 184 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:44,520 believe but are kind of not wanting more 185 00:07:49,910 --> 00:07:46,170 information but anyways back to your 186 00:08:03,140 --> 00:07:49,920 story you prepared yourself quite quite 187 00:08:06,830 --> 00:08:03,150 a bit for this reading didn't you but 188 00:08:09,980 --> 00:08:06,840 you know I have come to realize that 189 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:09,990 that's that doesn't work one of the 190 00:08:13,970 --> 00:08:12,090 alternative explanations for where a 191 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:13,980 medium gets her information is right 192 00:08:17,930 --> 00:08:15,690 from the sitter right from the living 193 00:08:20,690 --> 00:08:17,940 person wanting the reading so if I know 194 00:08:22,490 --> 00:08:20,700 the answer to the code that still and 195 00:08:24,380 --> 00:08:22,500 she gets it it still she still could be 196 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:24,390 getting it for me it doesn't demonstrate 197 00:08:27,950 --> 00:08:26,490 that she's talking to my mom she still 198 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:27,960 could be getting that information right 199 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:29,250 for me because I know the answer to the 200 00:08:34,130 --> 00:08:30,930 code so I recommend that 201 00:08:36,159 --> 00:08:34,140 people just let it happen as it happens 202 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:36,169 because the deceased are clever in my 203 00:08:41,300 --> 00:08:38,250 experience and they will find a way to 204 00:08:42,649 --> 00:08:41,310 demonstrate that it is indeed them and 205 00:08:46,190 --> 00:08:42,659 like you said I think that it's an 206 00:08:48,940 --> 00:08:46,200 important point that good mediums prefer 207 00:08:51,350 --> 00:08:48,950 to have no information from you and they 208 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:51,360 they would prefer to Shushi you if it 209 00:08:55,460 --> 00:08:53,250 wasn't rude when you try and tell them 210 00:08:59,000 --> 00:08:55,470 things during the reading you know we 211 00:09:01,370 --> 00:08:59,010 have when we do our certification of new 212 00:09:03,620 --> 00:09:01,380 mediums when we do our step five in our 213 00:09:07,850 --> 00:09:03,630 eight step procedure our step five test 214 00:09:12,410 --> 00:09:07,860 readings there's a number of readings 215 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:12,420 within the testing so there's quintuple 216 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:13,890 blind readings of that get scored by 217 00:09:16,820 --> 00:09:15,450 email men that once those are scored we 218 00:09:19,250 --> 00:09:16,830 get the medium and the sitter on the 219 00:09:22,070 --> 00:09:19,260 phone and in the first part the SID the 220 00:09:23,269 --> 00:09:22,080 medium the sitter can hear the medium 221 00:09:24,949 --> 00:09:23,279 but the medium doesn't have any 222 00:09:26,990 --> 00:09:24,959 information about the sitter not even 223 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:27,000 the gender or anything and so then the 224 00:09:31,010 --> 00:09:28,410 sitter scores that part where the medium 225 00:09:34,639 --> 00:09:31,020 is talking and then the second part I 226 00:09:36,260 --> 00:09:34,649 say okay now the medium can ask the 227 00:09:38,570 --> 00:09:36,270 sitter yes-or-no questions and the 228 00:09:41,930 --> 00:09:38,580 sitter can respond with Yes No maybe 229 00:09:43,730 --> 00:09:41,940 sort over I don't know and more often 230 00:09:45,079 --> 00:09:43,740 than not far more often than not the 231 00:09:47,750 --> 00:09:45,089 medium doesn't ask the sitter any 232 00:09:50,780 --> 00:09:47,760 questions she just keeps going because 233 00:09:52,190 --> 00:09:50,790 she did the feedback in my opinion again 234 00:09:54,740 --> 00:09:52,200 there's so many pieces of this we 235 00:09:56,780 --> 00:09:54,750 haven't studied specifically but my 236 00:09:59,390 --> 00:09:56,790 understanding is that mediumship seems 237 00:10:02,000 --> 00:09:59,400 to be a right brained process and when 238 00:10:04,220 --> 00:10:02,010 you start to bring logic into it the 239 00:10:06,410 --> 00:10:04,230 left brain gets in the way so you start 240 00:10:09,110 --> 00:10:06,420 asking questions and making assessments 241 00:10:11,660 --> 00:10:09,120 the left brain wants to take over and 242 00:10:13,610 --> 00:10:11,670 that kind of ruins it for the medium so 243 00:10:15,410 --> 00:10:13,620 yeah the a good medium the less 244 00:10:17,210 --> 00:10:15,420 information they know that's what they 245 00:10:20,449 --> 00:10:17,220 prefer right 246 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:20,459 and then obviously without telling the 247 00:10:25,550 --> 00:10:22,650 whole story the conclusion of that 248 00:10:28,250 --> 00:10:25,560 reading left you with the feeling that 249 00:10:30,530 --> 00:10:28,260 there was something to this and that you 250 00:10:35,510 --> 00:10:30,540 might have in fact connected with your 251 00:10:38,090 --> 00:10:35,520 deceased mother right yeah you know she 252 00:10:42,050 --> 00:10:38,100 didn't say anything mm or any of those 253 00:10:45,020 --> 00:10:42,060 kind of things and and I was so 254 00:10:47,390 --> 00:10:45,030 skeptical not skip yeah openly 255 00:10:49,370 --> 00:10:47,400 like the real skeptical right I didn't 256 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:49,380 know what it was until I went there to 257 00:10:55,010 --> 00:10:53,250 to [\h__\h] to gather some data and I made 258 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:55,020 assumptions about how it works so I 259 00:10:58,670 --> 00:10:57,090 thought that oh she must just be on the 260 00:11:01,040 --> 00:10:58,680 phone with my mom so she should be able 261 00:11:03,830 --> 00:11:01,050 to get every single thing perfectly 262 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:03,840 right and so she at one point one of the 263 00:11:10,250 --> 00:11:07,290 big things was she said oh there's a 264 00:11:18,710 --> 00:11:10,260 Dalmatian dog with your mom and I was 265 00:11:23,270 --> 00:11:18,720 like and she was like come on like at 266 00:11:25,340 --> 00:11:23,280 that point I had my skepticism but you 267 00:11:28,180 --> 00:11:25,350 know if my mom was gonna show her like 268 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:28,190 oh talk about our dog that would that's 269 00:11:32,570 --> 00:11:30,810 unique you know show Redell nation that 270 00:11:35,750 --> 00:11:32,580 all because if she showed her like our 271 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:35,760 weird dog that was half black lab and 272 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:37,530 half Dalmatian like she she wouldn't 273 00:11:42,050 --> 00:11:40,170 recognize what that was but she knows 274 00:11:43,820 --> 00:11:42,060 what a Dalmatian looks like so she you 275 00:11:47,060 --> 00:11:43,830 know she got her to say Dalmatian then 276 00:11:50,090 --> 00:11:47,070 that's that's meaningful 277 00:11:52,370 --> 00:11:50,100 so if yeah she was pretty frustrated 278 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:52,380 with singing by the end of it but I 279 00:11:58,360 --> 00:11:55,770 think that's the thing is that part of 280 00:12:00,350 --> 00:11:58,370 why I wrote this book was to sort of 281 00:12:03,890 --> 00:12:00,360 combat some of these misconceptions 282 00:12:07,220 --> 00:12:03,900 about what what we know about mediumship 283 00:12:09,770 --> 00:12:07,230 how it works and what you can expect and 284 00:12:11,660 --> 00:12:09,780 I think you know the the rise of this 285 00:12:13,010 --> 00:12:11,670 topic in the popular culture is sort of 286 00:12:14,780 --> 00:12:13,020 we talked about it like it's a 287 00:12:17,420 --> 00:12:14,790 double-edged sword right it brings 288 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:17,430 attention to the topic so then maybe 289 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:19,530 people will find us and maybe you know 290 00:12:24,470 --> 00:12:21,330 we can get the word out about our work 291 00:12:27,470 --> 00:12:24,480 but then the other side of it is it's 292 00:12:30,530 --> 00:12:27,480 represented incorrectly a lot of times 293 00:12:32,900 --> 00:12:30,540 and highly edited right so a lot I've 294 00:12:35,510 --> 00:12:32,910 heard from our mediums on our team that 295 00:12:37,670 --> 00:12:35,520 since there been a lot of shows TV shows 296 00:12:40,910 --> 00:12:37,680 about mediums now that their client base 297 00:12:42,500 --> 00:12:40,920 is saying like what the heck the mediums 298 00:12:44,660 --> 00:12:42,510 on TV are a hundred percent correct like 299 00:12:46,730 --> 00:12:44,670 why are you making mistakes but no 300 00:12:51,410 --> 00:12:46,740 medium is 100% correct that's highly 301 00:12:54,350 --> 00:12:51,420 edited I imagine and so that people are 302 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:54,360 expecting things from based on what 303 00:12:58,040 --> 00:12:56,610 they've seen on TV from that mediums in 304 00:13:03,139 --> 00:12:58,050 reality can't 305 00:13:06,410 --> 00:13:03,149 five right and so Julie as anyone who's 306 00:13:10,519 --> 00:13:06,420 listening can now fully appreciate you 307 00:13:12,850 --> 00:13:10,529 are truly a scientist and are very 308 00:13:16,130 --> 00:13:12,860 invested in taking a very scientific 309 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:16,140 perspective on this topic that I think 310 00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:17,730 one of the things that really struck me 311 00:13:22,250 --> 00:13:19,200 in the book and I really enjoyed about 312 00:13:25,579 --> 00:13:22,260 the book was how you broke down in very 313 00:13:28,460 --> 00:13:25,589 simple terms even the entry point into 314 00:13:31,130 --> 00:13:28,470 this topic from a scientific perspective 315 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:31,140 because I think it's it's really the 316 00:13:35,530 --> 00:13:32,850 biggest stumbling point there's a lot of 317 00:13:38,150 --> 00:13:35,540 folks that say oh psychic mediums that's 318 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:38,160 pseudoscience and you could never 319 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:41,250 approach it scientifically and what you 320 00:13:47,150 --> 00:13:44,130 do in the book is break it down and a 321 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:47,160 step by step approach and you start with 322 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:49,410 saying you know the first step would be 323 00:13:55,100 --> 00:13:53,130 just to make an observation and you know 324 00:13:58,850 --> 00:13:55,110 you make the observation that hey there 325 00:14:02,000 --> 00:13:58,860 is this medium and she can she claims to 326 00:14:04,250 --> 00:14:02,010 be getting this information from the 327 00:14:06,410 --> 00:14:04,260 dead but I wanted to recast that 328 00:14:09,470 --> 00:14:06,420 observation a little bit because I think 329 00:14:13,250 --> 00:14:09,480 that part of the problem we run into is 330 00:14:16,610 --> 00:14:13,260 we don't fully appreciate the 331 00:14:20,690 --> 00:14:16,620 observation and to me the observation is 332 00:14:24,139 --> 00:14:20,700 that throughout time across every 333 00:14:27,380 --> 00:14:24,149 culture so many great minds that we know 334 00:14:30,590 --> 00:14:27,390 of in science in literature in the arts 335 00:14:33,650 --> 00:14:30,600 have claimed that they've observed this 336 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:33,660 phenomenon either you know directly with 337 00:14:38,900 --> 00:14:36,570 spirit communication or specifically in 338 00:14:41,030 --> 00:14:38,910 your case that there are these specially 339 00:14:44,449 --> 00:14:41,040 gifted people that have allowed them to 340 00:14:47,090 --> 00:14:44,459 connect with deceased loved ones so I 341 00:14:50,060 --> 00:14:47,100 think sometimes when we even speck out 342 00:14:53,540 --> 00:14:50,070 this space we make it sound a little 343 00:14:56,540 --> 00:14:53,550 more humble than we should be in terms 344 00:14:59,090 --> 00:14:56,550 of saying you know the counter to this 345 00:15:01,340 --> 00:14:59,100 that this is not what we've observed 346 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:01,350 that this hasn't happened thousands and 347 00:15:06,829 --> 00:15:02,970 thousands of times with the people we 348 00:15:10,819 --> 00:15:06,839 respect most is really kind of it's kind 349 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:10,829 of absurd to - to even suggest that we 350 00:15:15,129 --> 00:15:11,730 shouldn't look 351 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:15,139 this seriously given the large amount of 352 00:15:20,030 --> 00:15:17,610 observations we've had of this phenomena 353 00:15:22,100 --> 00:15:20,040 do you have any thoughts on that impetus 354 00:15:23,900 --> 00:15:22,110 yeah that's a really good point right 355 00:15:25,670 --> 00:15:23,910 yeah the observation is this didn't 356 00:15:30,500 --> 00:15:25,680 happen this one time this happened 357 00:15:32,569 --> 00:15:30,510 millions of times and I'm in a pure cyst 358 00:15:35,060 --> 00:15:32,579 right so I have to how can I bring it 359 00:15:37,879 --> 00:15:35,070 into the lab how can I study it over and 360 00:15:40,569 --> 00:15:37,889 over and over again and so that's that's 361 00:15:43,790 --> 00:15:40,579 the way that I took and it's really just 362 00:15:46,699 --> 00:15:43,800 the proper word would be ignorant to say 363 00:15:48,530 --> 00:15:46,709 that scientists incapable of addressing 364 00:15:51,639 --> 00:15:48,540 something anything 365 00:15:55,009 --> 00:15:51,649 science is a tool and it's a and it's a 366 00:15:56,689 --> 00:15:55,019 process so if you have a topic and you 367 00:15:59,389 --> 00:15:56,699 can make an observation that you can 368 00:16:01,790 --> 00:15:59,399 apply the scientific method to it so 369 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:01,800 that's I think that's just it's not 370 00:16:12,019 --> 00:16:10,050 understanding I think one things you go 371 00:16:13,819 --> 00:16:12,029 on and I really like this so you talk 372 00:16:15,910 --> 00:16:13,829 about the scientific method you spray 373 00:16:18,530 --> 00:16:15,920 kit down step one is observe eight is 374 00:16:21,290 --> 00:16:18,540 observation in this case we observe this 375 00:16:24,430 --> 00:16:21,300 phenomena and then you say step two is 376 00:16:28,370 --> 00:16:24,440 really a tricky part in this particular 377 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:28,380 case of psychic medium or medium istic 378 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:30,690 communication with the deceased and 379 00:16:37,129 --> 00:16:33,930 that's that we want to jump to a 380 00:16:40,100 --> 00:16:37,139 question that may be going too far and 381 00:16:42,650 --> 00:16:40,110 in you in your case you say you know we 382 00:16:45,170 --> 00:16:42,660 don't really want to start with the 383 00:16:51,170 --> 00:16:45,180 question that these mediums are talking 384 00:16:53,150 --> 00:16:51,180 with the dead right how do you so we 385 00:16:56,319 --> 00:16:53,160 have to back up and say you know at the 386 00:16:58,610 --> 00:16:56,329 very base of it what what can we ask and 387 00:17:00,860 --> 00:16:58,620 that would be are they reporting 388 00:17:03,740 --> 00:17:00,870 accurate and specific information about 389 00:17:07,329 --> 00:17:03,750 the deceased once we establish that then 390 00:17:09,919 --> 00:17:07,339 we can start over with a new hypothesis 391 00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:09,929 you know if the answer is yes to that 392 00:17:14,030 --> 00:17:12,089 question yes they are getting accurate 393 00:17:15,860 --> 00:17:14,040 and specific information about the 394 00:17:18,350 --> 00:17:15,870 disease and we've eliminated all other 395 00:17:20,689 --> 00:17:18,360 explanations then we can go to the thing 396 00:17:22,100 --> 00:17:20,699 okay where are they getting this 397 00:17:23,210 --> 00:17:22,110 information if it isn't through any 398 00:17:25,340 --> 00:17:23,220 normal 399 00:17:27,230 --> 00:17:25,350 you know then our hypothesis is they're 400 00:17:28,670 --> 00:17:27,240 talking to the dead or they're getting 401 00:17:31,070 --> 00:17:28,680 it from the sitter you know 402 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:31,080 telepathically or that sort of thing but 403 00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:33,450 yeah you can't start out there talking I 404 00:17:44,990 --> 00:17:41,130 mean you can that's right and I think 405 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:45,000 that that also is where the skeptics and 406 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:46,290 I don't just mean the professional 407 00:17:50,870 --> 00:17:49,170 skeptics but the the scoffers as well 408 00:17:53,510 --> 00:17:50,880 and the people who have a strong vested 409 00:17:56,330 --> 00:17:53,520 interest not to even go there which is 410 00:17:59,120 --> 00:17:56,340 what really is behind this they want to 411 00:18:02,300 --> 00:17:59,130 frame things differently so that it 412 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:02,310 creates a question that can't really be 413 00:18:05,780 --> 00:18:04,170 answered scientifically and what I think 414 00:18:07,700 --> 00:18:05,790 you do a wonderful job in the book is 415 00:18:09,410 --> 00:18:07,710 saying you know when I first heard that 416 00:18:12,260 --> 00:18:09,420 I go wow that's really a good point 417 00:18:14,210 --> 00:18:12,270 because anyone can look at and say yeah 418 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:14,220 that does seem to be a question that we 419 00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:17,610 could scientifically ask an answer and 420 00:18:23,510 --> 00:18:20,370 that is here's a person who says she's 421 00:18:26,150 --> 00:18:23,520 able to get this information is she able 422 00:18:28,070 --> 00:18:26,160 to get specific and accurate information 423 00:18:30,980 --> 00:18:28,080 how we are we ought to be able to do 424 00:18:33,530 --> 00:18:30,990 that we can test true or false right if 425 00:18:35,210 --> 00:18:33,540 what she's saying is true and I think a 426 00:18:37,610 --> 00:18:35,220 really important piece of that is the 427 00:18:40,430 --> 00:18:37,620 only person that can gauge whether what 428 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:40,440 the medium is saying it's accurate is 429 00:18:45,710 --> 00:18:43,050 the sitter right even if you sat down 430 00:18:49,070 --> 00:18:45,720 with the sitter for two weeks 24 hours a 431 00:18:51,020 --> 00:18:49,080 day and had them tell you everything 432 00:18:52,490 --> 00:18:51,030 they knew about this dead person that 433 00:18:55,790 --> 00:18:52,500 they were gonna get the medium to talk 434 00:18:57,470 --> 00:18:55,800 to and then you the reading happened and 435 00:18:59,030 --> 00:18:57,480 you had all this information without 436 00:19:00,800 --> 00:18:59,040 fail there would be something that the 437 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:00,810 sitter had forgotten or whatever the 438 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:03,050 only person that can make sense of the 439 00:19:07,220 --> 00:19:05,490 reading is the sitter it's intended for 440 00:19:09,230 --> 00:19:07,230 the sitter it's communication between 441 00:19:11,330 --> 00:19:09,240 two people who had a relationship a 442 00:19:14,270 --> 00:19:11,340 third party can't determine what's 443 00:19:16,670 --> 00:19:14,280 important or not and that's why I have 444 00:19:19,100 --> 00:19:16,680 not included in the book any transcripts 445 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:19,110 of readings because the only person that 446 00:19:23,450 --> 00:19:21,210 can gauge whether those things are 447 00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:23,460 indeed accurate important is the sitter 448 00:19:28,610 --> 00:19:26,370 you know someone else may say oh well a 449 00:19:31,070 --> 00:19:28,620 lot of people have Dalmatians well that 450 00:19:34,100 --> 00:19:31,080 doesn't matter it's important to me and 451 00:19:36,530 --> 00:19:34,110 my mom and we didn't have any other kind 452 00:19:38,150 --> 00:19:36,540 of dog we didn't so that's that 453 00:19:42,710 --> 00:19:38,160 totally unique she didn't mention any 454 00:19:44,180 --> 00:19:42,720 other kind of dog and so that I think 455 00:19:46,340 --> 00:19:44,190 that's a point that you know a lot of 456 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:46,350 times we did a lot of emails from people 457 00:19:48,980 --> 00:19:47,490 saying why don't you post the 458 00:19:51,350 --> 00:19:48,990 transcripts and then we could see if 459 00:19:54,470 --> 00:19:51,360 they were good mediums no you couldn't 460 00:19:56,360 --> 00:19:54,480 because they are your readings the only 461 00:19:58,990 --> 00:19:56,370 person that can gauge whether a reading 462 00:20:01,940 --> 00:19:59,000 is meaningful and accurate is the sitter 463 00:20:05,540 --> 00:20:01,950 good point and I think it's another area 464 00:20:08,090 --> 00:20:05,550 where people who are really inclined to 465 00:20:11,030 --> 00:20:08,100 disbelieve this the professional 466 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:11,040 skeptics professional scoffer types kind 467 00:20:15,170 --> 00:20:13,050 of want to jump in there and what 468 00:20:16,610 --> 00:20:15,180 they're failing to acknowledge is 469 00:20:19,490 --> 00:20:16,620 something that we all know and that 470 00:20:21,980 --> 00:20:19,500 there's a lot of this kind of subjective 471 00:20:24,110 --> 00:20:21,990 first-person evaluation that goes on in 472 00:20:26,380 --> 00:20:24,120 science and then particularly you know 473 00:20:29,390 --> 00:20:26,390 where you started with in terms of 474 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:29,400 pharmacology and toxicology and also in 475 00:20:34,340 --> 00:20:31,530 a lot of medical research that's all we 476 00:20:36,430 --> 00:20:34,350 have is a first person's account do you 477 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:36,440 feel better are you 478 00:20:44,150 --> 00:20:41,610 still pain exactly so this idea that you 479 00:20:46,340 --> 00:20:44,160 know first person suggests subjective 480 00:20:50,420 --> 00:20:46,350 experience isn't something we can 481 00:20:52,970 --> 00:20:50,430 measure is just silly at face value but 482 00:20:54,580 --> 00:20:52,980 it's just more of the the game that we 483 00:20:56,210 --> 00:20:54,590 have to play when we talk about 484 00:20:58,160 --> 00:20:56,220 communication with the dead than 485 00:20:59,960 --> 00:20:58,170 immediately everyone wants on tense up 486 00:21:07,960 --> 00:20:59,970 and say no you can't go there you can't 487 00:21:13,610 --> 00:21:07,970 do yeah science is us is a list of steps 488 00:21:15,650 --> 00:21:13,620 and people forget that the thing 489 00:21:18,650 --> 00:21:15,660 performing the steps is a human being 490 00:21:21,260 --> 00:21:18,660 and and us lots of scientists like to 491 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:21,270 think that they can remain objective to 492 00:21:26,750 --> 00:21:23,930 what they're studying but they can't and 493 00:21:29,270 --> 00:21:26,760 because you were a person and you have a 494 00:21:31,430 --> 00:21:29,280 human brain you will always have diocese 495 00:21:34,220 --> 00:21:31,440 and you always have assumptions and so 496 00:21:35,750 --> 00:21:34,230 the best you can do is address your 497 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:35,760 assumptions and so recognize your 498 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:37,770 assumptions and so a lot of times you 499 00:21:41,450 --> 00:21:39,690 know there have been papers published in 500 00:21:44,090 --> 00:21:41,460 peer-reviewed journals where scientists 501 00:21:45,860 --> 00:21:44,100 got negative results from mediums but 502 00:21:47,780 --> 00:21:45,870 there were a lot of assumptions like 503 00:21:49,250 --> 00:21:47,790 okay well if I put them in this box and 504 00:21:49,740 --> 00:21:49,260 I make them do this thing but I think 505 00:21:53,010 --> 00:21:49,750 they 506 00:21:55,050 --> 00:21:53,020 do it then I will have disproof in that 507 00:21:56,820 --> 00:21:55,060 mediums are real and that's just silly 508 00:21:59,280 --> 00:21:56,830 and I make a big point of that in my 509 00:22:00,960 --> 00:21:59,290 book that there are two pieces of a good 510 00:22:03,990 --> 00:22:00,970 experiment and this doesn't just apply 511 00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:04,000 to mediumship it's you know any of these 512 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:06,370 sort of anomalous phenomena need these 513 00:22:11,460 --> 00:22:08,170 pieces in an experiment and that's 514 00:22:14,130 --> 00:22:11,470 optimal controls part of me optimal 515 00:22:16,500 --> 00:22:14,140 environment and maximum controls so you 516 00:22:20,070 --> 00:22:16,510 want to study the thing as it exists in 517 00:22:23,190 --> 00:22:20,080 nature right so we can't put the medium 518 00:22:24,990 --> 00:22:23,200 and give her a famous person's name and 519 00:22:26,700 --> 00:22:25,000 say tell me things about the famous 520 00:22:29,220 --> 00:22:26,710 person like she doesn't know the famous 521 00:22:30,810 --> 00:22:29,230 bird like the famous person's loved ones 522 00:22:32,940 --> 00:22:30,820 aren't with her they're not wanting the 523 00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:32,950 reading she can't just reach out into 524 00:22:37,620 --> 00:22:34,510 the ether and get any information she 525 00:22:39,420 --> 00:22:37,630 wants it's as if the process is people 526 00:22:41,190 --> 00:22:39,430 come to her and they want to hear from 527 00:22:42,810 --> 00:22:41,200 their loved ones who have died and she 528 00:22:44,460 --> 00:22:42,820 provide for that information so you have 529 00:22:47,310 --> 00:22:44,470 to study that you have to study what the 530 00:22:49,230 --> 00:22:47,320 thing is and go back and tell us because 531 00:22:51,090 --> 00:22:49,240 we don't want to skip over that because 532 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:51,100 it's a real important point that you 533 00:22:56,490 --> 00:22:53,290 make and I love the analogy you give in 534 00:22:59,640 --> 00:22:56,500 the book you say no more could you study 535 00:23:02,700 --> 00:22:59,650 a medium in an unnatural way than you 536 00:23:05,700 --> 00:23:02,710 could study an acorn by putting it on a 537 00:23:11,250 --> 00:23:05,710 lab table and saying grow now grow come 538 00:23:14,340 --> 00:23:11,260 on what's wrong with you right and in 539 00:23:17,130 --> 00:23:14,350 this case though how do we decide how do 540 00:23:19,470 --> 00:23:17,140 we determine what is this natural 541 00:23:23,490 --> 00:23:19,480 because it sounds a little bit fuzzy 542 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:23,500 when we say the natural mediumistic kind 543 00:23:31,950 --> 00:23:25,690 of environment well how do we get there 544 00:23:33,630 --> 00:23:31,960 so with our professional full-time 545 00:23:36,180 --> 00:23:33,640 mediums this is what they do for a 546 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:36,190 living and so they have a way that they 547 00:23:41,670 --> 00:23:38,650 do what they do and a lot of times it 548 00:23:47,310 --> 00:23:41,680 involves a sitter calling them on the 549 00:23:49,170 --> 00:23:47,320 phone and vice versa and they have some 550 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:49,180 kind of nugget of information sometimes 551 00:23:53,070 --> 00:23:50,770 some of them prefer to know the 552 00:23:54,750 --> 00:23:53,080 relationship some want to know the first 553 00:23:57,330 --> 00:23:54,760 name of the deceased person 554 00:23:59,400 --> 00:23:57,340 you know sometimes chips the sitter 555 00:24:02,019 --> 00:23:59,410 being on the phone is enough of the 556 00:24:04,299 --> 00:24:02,029 Nugget and 557 00:24:07,269 --> 00:24:04,309 excuse me then they provide the 558 00:24:08,919 --> 00:24:07,279 information about that person and so we 559 00:24:13,060 --> 00:24:08,929 have to mimic that situation because 560 00:24:14,769 --> 00:24:13,070 that's what they do in real life great 561 00:24:17,619 --> 00:24:14,779 that's one thing great and we should 562 00:24:20,859 --> 00:24:17,629 also point out that and you alluded to 563 00:24:25,029 --> 00:24:20,869 this but if you're a deep bunker hey 564 00:24:27,459 --> 00:24:25,039 this is a great way to derail any of 565 00:24:30,369 --> 00:24:27,469 these experiments because you can really 566 00:24:33,399 --> 00:24:30,379 muck them up in a way that not a lot of 567 00:24:36,700 --> 00:24:33,409 people are going to pick up on right so 568 00:24:39,849 --> 00:24:36,710 whether it's mediums or any as you said 569 00:24:42,639 --> 00:24:39,859 any of these paranormal psyche and of 570 00:24:45,009 --> 00:24:42,649 phenomena you can just start changing 571 00:24:46,389 --> 00:24:45,019 the environment and without knowing and 572 00:24:49,060 --> 00:24:46,399 you have a pretty good chance of mixing 573 00:24:51,430 --> 00:24:49,070 of messing these things up right yeah 574 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:51,440 and the same thing with you can you know 575 00:24:55,570 --> 00:24:53,570 control your phenomenon right out of 576 00:24:59,409 --> 00:24:55,580 existence right you can you can impose 577 00:25:02,799 --> 00:24:59,419 too many rules on it that now it can't 578 00:25:05,919 --> 00:25:02,809 even exist anymore and you know that's a 579 00:25:08,739 --> 00:25:05,929 good thing to do at what point can you 580 00:25:10,029 --> 00:25:08,749 make the phenomenon disappear so you can 581 00:25:11,469 --> 00:25:10,039 say okay it can happen like this and 582 00:25:14,049 --> 00:25:11,479 this and this but not like this 583 00:25:17,289 --> 00:25:14,059 so now you have the line where you you 584 00:25:19,659 --> 00:25:17,299 know it you can't pass it and in you 585 00:25:22,570 --> 00:25:19,669 know in these fields the resources are 586 00:25:26,229 --> 00:25:22,580 so limited that we don't have the option 587 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:26,239 to do that so I have to just optimize it 588 00:25:32,079 --> 00:25:29,690 the best I can while controlling for all 589 00:25:33,879 --> 00:25:32,089 the other explanations for where the 590 00:25:36,039 --> 00:25:33,889 information could come from so again 591 00:25:38,289 --> 00:25:36,049 optimal environment maximum controls 592 00:25:40,930 --> 00:25:38,299 right so we should touch on maybe just a 593 00:25:44,169 --> 00:25:40,940 little bit more the kind of controls 594 00:25:46,209 --> 00:25:44,179 that you impose since you have I guess 595 00:25:48,209 --> 00:25:46,219 we could say you've written the book on 596 00:25:51,099 --> 00:25:48,219 it or you've written a paper on it in 597 00:25:54,579 --> 00:25:51,109 contemporary methods used in laboratory 598 00:25:57,070 --> 00:25:54,589 based medium research paper that many 599 00:25:58,810 --> 00:25:57,080 people cite who are familiar with this 600 00:26:00,999 --> 00:25:58,820 kind of research as kind of the gold 601 00:26:03,879 --> 00:26:01,009 standard for this kind of research what 602 00:26:06,310 --> 00:26:03,889 were you really looking for in terms of 603 00:26:08,859 --> 00:26:06,320 the most important kinds of controls to 604 00:26:11,049 --> 00:26:08,869 impose on these experiments well we 605 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:11,059 wanted to eliminate all the explanations 606 00:26:15,230 --> 00:26:13,129 that you know because once the 607 00:26:17,539 --> 00:26:15,240 information is accurate and specific 608 00:26:19,159 --> 00:26:17,549 well yeah well she did a background 609 00:26:21,110 --> 00:26:19,169 check on you that's where she got all 610 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:21,120 the information so we have to eliminate 611 00:26:25,700 --> 00:26:23,450 all the things that yeah but it's just 612 00:26:27,950 --> 00:26:25,710 blank you have to eliminate all those 613 00:26:29,269 --> 00:26:27,960 blanks that it could be and so cold 614 00:26:34,039 --> 00:26:29,279 reading is the big one 615 00:26:37,299 --> 00:26:34,049 so fishing for information right where 616 00:26:40,130 --> 00:26:37,309 they're getting feedback or they just 617 00:26:42,230 --> 00:26:40,140 Loyd Auerbach was pointed this out to me 618 00:26:43,580 --> 00:26:42,240 that another kind of cold reading that 619 00:26:46,220 --> 00:26:43,590 people sometimes forget about it's just 620 00:26:48,710 --> 00:26:46,230 information so general it could apply to 621 00:26:51,169 --> 00:26:48,720 almost anyone so that's a type of cold 622 00:26:52,580 --> 00:26:51,179 reading as well so to eliminate that we 623 00:26:55,970 --> 00:26:52,590 don't let the medium and the sitter 624 00:26:58,340 --> 00:26:55,980 anywhere near each other and most of any 625 00:26:59,899 --> 00:26:58,350 mediums near me our mediums are all over 626 00:27:01,669 --> 00:26:59,909 the country and I've never even been in 627 00:27:03,980 --> 00:27:01,679 the same room it's probably about half 628 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:03,990 of it so all our readings take place 629 00:27:08,289 --> 00:27:06,330 over the phone and all the medium it's 630 00:27:10,940 --> 00:27:08,299 just the medium and I on the phone and 631 00:27:12,740 --> 00:27:10,950 we only have the first name of a 632 00:27:14,810 --> 00:27:12,750 deceased person that's all we have and 633 00:27:16,399 --> 00:27:14,820 then during the reading I ask the medium 634 00:27:18,350 --> 00:27:16,409 specific questions tell me what the 635 00:27:19,730 --> 00:27:18,360 deceased person looked like describe 636 00:27:21,620 --> 00:27:19,740 their personality what were their 637 00:27:23,930 --> 00:27:21,630 interest how did they die all 638 00:27:30,710 --> 00:27:23,940 information that you don't know right - 639 00:27:37,399 --> 00:27:34,279 so these controls are way beyond what 640 00:27:39,769 --> 00:27:37,409 any reasonable person would ask for in 641 00:27:42,500 --> 00:27:39,779 terms of really looking at this 642 00:27:45,950 --> 00:27:42,510 phenomena in an open way I mean there's 643 00:27:49,580 --> 00:27:45,960 not a lot of opportunity for any 644 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:49,590 information exchange other than by some 645 00:27:54,230 --> 00:27:51,690 kind of anomalous means that we don't 646 00:27:56,360 --> 00:27:54,240 understand and of course that I guess is 647 00:27:59,210 --> 00:27:56,370 your result your bottom line your 648 00:28:00,889 --> 00:27:59,220 conclusion right that there must be some 649 00:28:05,060 --> 00:28:00,899 other means of this anomalous 650 00:28:07,789 --> 00:28:05,070 communication right yeah quite 651 00:28:11,570 --> 00:28:07,799 statistically confident that this data 652 00:28:13,130 --> 00:28:11,580 demonstrate that what we call anomalous 653 00:28:14,269 --> 00:28:13,140 information reception so they're 654 00:28:16,700 --> 00:28:14,279 reporting accurate and specific 655 00:28:17,899 --> 00:28:16,710 information about the deceased that they 656 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:17,909 couldn't have gotten through normal 657 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:21,090 means without any feedback without any 658 00:28:27,110 --> 00:28:23,730 prior knowledge and without using fraud 659 00:28:28,810 --> 00:28:27,120 or deception so let's talk for a minute 660 00:28:30,820 --> 00:28:28,820 about 661 00:28:33,009 --> 00:28:30,830 guess where we go with this research 662 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:33,019 what this research means what are the 663 00:28:37,740 --> 00:28:35,690 implications for this research and I 664 00:28:41,110 --> 00:28:37,750 guess the starting point for that is 665 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:41,120 possible explanations and I gotta say I 666 00:28:45,999 --> 00:28:44,210 was a little disappointed to hear you 667 00:28:47,259 --> 00:28:46,009 say that there are three possible 668 00:28:50,350 --> 00:28:47,269 explanations and they're kind of 669 00:28:55,230 --> 00:28:50,360 neck-and-neck and you included super psy 670 00:28:59,080 --> 00:28:55,240 as a possible explanation oh that's just 671 00:29:01,749 --> 00:28:59,090 completed an interview with Chris Carter 672 00:29:03,850 --> 00:29:01,759 on his new book on the afterlife and we 673 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:03,860 had a good conversation about just what 674 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:07,970 a weak explanation that is in terms of 675 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:11,330 really addressing a large amount of the 676 00:29:16,419 --> 00:29:13,490 data that we have back it just doesn't 677 00:29:19,090 --> 00:29:16,429 seem to to cover it in any significant 678 00:29:21,100 --> 00:29:19,100 way but that I've already laid out my 679 00:29:23,580 --> 00:29:21,110 prejudice there but tell me about the 680 00:29:25,570 --> 00:29:23,590 possible explanations that you see and 681 00:29:43,629 --> 00:29:25,580 how you would evaluate those 682 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:43,639 possibilities it's just hey what if it 683 00:29:53,769 --> 00:29:46,730 was this it's not it's just a thought 684 00:29:55,570 --> 00:29:53,779 experiment it's not it's not explanation 685 00:29:57,399 --> 00:29:55,580 so I just included it there because 686 00:29:59,289 --> 00:29:57,409 historically that alternative 687 00:30:00,549 --> 00:29:59,299 explanation and we should back up we 688 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:00,559 should back up for a minute because I 689 00:30:05,019 --> 00:30:02,690 jumped ahead of the game to tell folks 690 00:30:08,139 --> 00:30:05,029 walk them through in somewhat basic 691 00:30:10,990 --> 00:30:08,149 terms what the possible explanations are 692 00:30:15,580 --> 00:30:11,000 for what you've observed for an honest 693 00:30:17,980 --> 00:30:15,590 information reception exactly so we put 694 00:30:21,639 --> 00:30:17,990 it sort of into two schools of thought 695 00:30:25,269 --> 00:30:21,649 one we call cymatics I so somatic means 696 00:30:27,970 --> 00:30:25,279 right so one means body so that 697 00:30:30,639 --> 00:30:27,980 explanation includes that the medium is 698 00:30:32,740 --> 00:30:30,649 accessing the body of information stored 699 00:30:34,539 --> 00:30:32,750 in the universe of that Akashic field or 700 00:30:36,430 --> 00:30:34,549 you know however you want to think of 701 00:30:38,049 --> 00:30:36,440 that so they're not talking to the dead 702 00:30:41,470 --> 00:30:38,059 through just accessing this body of 703 00:30:42,790 --> 00:30:41,480 information or we include in that the 704 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:42,800 living people 705 00:30:47,470 --> 00:30:44,810 they're they're accessing information 706 00:30:49,900 --> 00:30:47,480 telepathically from living people so we 707 00:30:53,350 --> 00:30:49,910 call that somatic sigh and then that the 708 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:53,360 second is called survival sigh so there 709 00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:56,210 because in any case they're involved 710 00:30:59,980 --> 00:30:57,890 they're using some kind of side right 711 00:31:03,430 --> 00:30:59,990 because it's anomalous information 712 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:03,440 transfer so in survival sigh the 713 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:05,450 explanation states that the medium is 714 00:31:09,940 --> 00:31:07,010 communicating with the survived 715 00:31:11,710 --> 00:31:09,950 consciousness of a once living person 716 00:31:13,570 --> 00:31:11,720 who the consciousness has continued to 717 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:13,580 exist after the physical death of the 718 00:31:17,980 --> 00:31:16,250 body so that's the communication is 719 00:31:20,070 --> 00:31:17,990 called survival sigh and then sort of 720 00:31:23,050 --> 00:31:20,080 this they're using any other kind of 721 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:23,060 sigh ability but no dead people are 722 00:31:28,900 --> 00:31:25,730 involved we call that somatic sigh great 723 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:28,910 and and then at the end of the book you 724 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:31,730 come around to saying the the deeper 725 00:31:36,010 --> 00:31:34,490 philosophical spiritual implications for 726 00:31:39,010 --> 00:31:36,020 this which I think we're creeping up to 727 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:39,020 when we talk about explanations and this 728 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:41,330 is another area that I thought was was 729 00:31:46,990 --> 00:31:44,330 really really fascinating and I think a 730 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:47,000 lot of folks would be quite surprised at 731 00:31:53,590 --> 00:31:50,930 your conclusions because one part of 732 00:31:55,210 --> 00:31:53,600 that conclusion is this from your book 733 00:31:58,030 --> 00:31:55,220 among mediums 734 00:32:02,430 --> 00:31:58,040 I don't think however this principle 735 00:32:06,460 --> 00:32:02,440 necessitates a grander spiritual reality 736 00:32:10,150 --> 00:32:06,470 tell us why you think your research 737 00:32:12,790 --> 00:32:10,160 doesn't support the idea of a grander 738 00:32:17,380 --> 00:32:12,800 spiritual reality that's gonna cheese 739 00:32:20,350 --> 00:32:17,390 some people often I wanna make that 740 00:32:23,980 --> 00:32:20,360 clear it neither refutes nor defense so 741 00:32:27,310 --> 00:32:23,990 it just does it I think that was giving 742 00:32:31,180 --> 00:32:27,320 people who don't buy into like the new 743 00:32:33,430 --> 00:32:31,190 agey kind of you know culture that that 744 00:32:35,410 --> 00:32:33,440 is often surrounded by these topics you 745 00:32:38,380 --> 00:32:35,420 still can believe that these not even 746 00:32:41,050 --> 00:32:38,390 believe you still can respect the data 747 00:32:43,390 --> 00:32:41,060 that they that the data demonstrate that 748 00:32:45,340 --> 00:32:43,400 they're reporting accurate and specific 749 00:32:47,650 --> 00:32:45,350 information about the deceased and even 750 00:32:49,900 --> 00:32:47,660 that the deceased are the consciousness 751 00:32:52,150 --> 00:32:49,910 still around even though the physical 752 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:52,160 body is dead you can skip behind all 753 00:32:58,620 --> 00:32:55,210 that without needing to believe 754 00:33:02,130 --> 00:32:58,630 in God or heaven or things like that 755 00:33:04,830 --> 00:33:02,140 like you can the you know consciousness 756 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:04,840 may just have a characteristic of being 757 00:33:08,850 --> 00:33:06,970 able to live outside the body that may 758 00:33:09,630 --> 00:33:08,860 just simply be a characteristic of 759 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:09,640 consciousness 760 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:13,690 it doesn't necessitate God or those 761 00:33:18,270 --> 00:33:15,730 hevener you know these these other 762 00:33:20,220 --> 00:33:18,280 things that that words that make some 763 00:33:21,390 --> 00:33:20,230 people uncomfortable so I just wanted to 764 00:33:23,250 --> 00:33:21,400 make that point 765 00:33:24,870 --> 00:33:23,260 see I don't quite agree with that and I 766 00:33:28,460 --> 00:33:24,880 think it's interesting to explore that 767 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:28,470 because I think that statement in a way 768 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:31,090 betrays some of the spirit of the 769 00:33:35,550 --> 00:33:33,970 initial question the initial observation 770 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:35,560 you know I just heard the other day this 771 00:33:43,140 --> 00:33:39,010 quote from Nobel Prize author and 772 00:33:46,190 --> 00:33:43,150 philosopher Albert Kummer and who once 773 00:33:49,140 --> 00:33:46,200 said there's really only one serious 774 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:49,150 philosophical question and that is 775 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:53,530 suicide so I think I think what he's 776 00:33:59,180 --> 00:33:56,050 saying is that you know if life really 777 00:34:03,960 --> 00:33:59,190 is meaningless if we are these mere 778 00:34:07,740 --> 00:34:03,970 biological robots then suicide is the 779 00:34:09,510 --> 00:34:07,750 only viable way out of this absurdity 780 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:09,520 that we kind of find ourselves in 781 00:34:13,350 --> 00:34:11,170 because there is no meaning there is no 782 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:13,360 meaning to any of this and even if we 783 00:34:16,530 --> 00:34:15,010 try and pin it on our kids or we'll 784 00:34:18,990 --> 00:34:16,540 leave it well we're just leaving them a 785 00:34:21,330 --> 00:34:19,000 meaningless existence we're just passing 786 00:34:24,630 --> 00:34:21,340 that along and I think we could rework 787 00:34:27,030 --> 00:34:24,640 that that statement and scientifically 788 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:27,040 and say there's only one real serious 789 00:34:32,940 --> 00:34:30,610 scientific question and that is god and 790 00:34:34,980 --> 00:34:32,950 even though we can be uncomfortable with 791 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:34,990 that and I know a lot of people are 792 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:37,810 really uncomfortable with that I don't 793 00:34:40,860 --> 00:34:39,130 care how you want to put them you want 794 00:34:42,870 --> 00:34:40,870 to say there's only one real scientific 795 00:34:44,610 --> 00:34:42,880 question it's are we biological robots 796 00:34:46,890 --> 00:34:44,620 there's only one serious scientific 797 00:34:50,550 --> 00:34:46,900 question does the mind equal brain i I 798 00:34:54,240 --> 00:34:50,560 think that it's the same thing of saying 799 00:34:57,390 --> 00:34:54,250 is there consciousness and is that 800 00:34:59,220 --> 00:34:57,400 consciousness somehow meaningful is 801 00:35:02,940 --> 00:34:59,230 there meaning behind it because I think 802 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:02,950 if there is then III think that the 803 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:06,930 scales tip way on the side of the god 804 00:35:10,210 --> 00:35:08,450 equation even 805 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:10,220 we can be really uncomfortable with that 806 00:35:15,250 --> 00:35:11,930 that's really kind of where those 807 00:35:18,940 --> 00:35:15,260 implications go and and I just go back 808 00:35:21,069 --> 00:35:18,950 to that very first part of the 809 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:21,079 scientific method where we say okay we 810 00:35:25,450 --> 00:35:23,450 have this observation thousands of the 811 00:35:29,319 --> 00:35:25,460 greatest minds throughout history have 812 00:35:31,810 --> 00:35:29,329 said survival and now we come back and 813 00:35:35,290 --> 00:35:31,820 we say we look at your dad and we say 814 00:35:38,500 --> 00:35:35,300 your data of that question is confirming 815 00:35:42,010 --> 00:35:38,510 yes it does suggest we are more mine 816 00:35:43,839 --> 00:35:42,020 doesn't equal brain it so in my mind if 817 00:35:47,500 --> 00:35:43,849 we're really going to be honest what it 818 00:35:50,589 --> 00:35:47,510 suggests is more evidence tipping on the 819 00:35:53,140 --> 00:35:50,599 scale of God and even if you don't like 820 00:35:56,500 --> 00:35:53,150 that that's kind of my term why do we 821 00:35:58,359 --> 00:35:56,510 want to try and play this balancing act 822 00:36:00,490 --> 00:35:58,369 and say well it could be it couldn't be 823 00:36:09,819 --> 00:36:00,500 do we really need to go there is that 824 00:36:10,660 --> 00:36:09,829 really scientific so first that's not my 825 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:10,670 job 826 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:24,530 the wind bridge Institute for Applied 827 00:36:29,410 --> 00:36:27,530 Research and human potential so at the 828 00:36:31,660 --> 00:36:29,420 end of the day we don't really care 829 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:31,670 what's happening but how can it help 830 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:35,210 people and how can we use it so that is 831 00:36:42,370 --> 00:36:39,650 really my main focus so I will leave it 832 00:36:44,950 --> 00:36:42,380 to the philosophers to have this 833 00:36:50,290 --> 00:36:44,960 discussion I think that you're trying to 834 00:36:56,109 --> 00:36:50,300 rope me into but I don't think I 835 00:37:01,630 --> 00:36:56,119 honestly don't think that that you need 836 00:37:03,190 --> 00:37:01,640 to have a bigger you know this idea of 837 00:37:04,809 --> 00:37:03,200 the word spiritual like that just the 838 00:37:07,030 --> 00:37:04,819 recognition that there's something 839 00:37:08,859 --> 00:37:07,040 bigger than me and I think that the 840 00:37:11,589 --> 00:37:08,869 thing that's bigger than you can just be 841 00:37:14,099 --> 00:37:11,599 your relationship with other people that 842 00:37:17,470 --> 00:37:14,109 apparently according to this data 843 00:37:20,770 --> 00:37:17,480 continues even after the person dies and 844 00:37:22,530 --> 00:37:20,780 even after you die and even after your 845 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:22,540 dog dies 846 00:37:30,060 --> 00:37:27,970 and that that's meaningful in and of 847 00:37:32,250 --> 00:37:30,070 itself like do we have to assign greater 848 00:37:34,410 --> 00:37:32,260 meaning that's pretty cool right there 849 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:34,420 like that we have that we have to have 850 00:37:40,350 --> 00:37:38,170 like this grander definition of how it's 851 00:37:43,290 --> 00:37:40,360 happening no that's pretty cool right 852 00:37:47,100 --> 00:37:43,300 there well I'm gonna try and rope you in 853 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:47,110 one more time I'm not sure about needing 854 00:37:52,650 --> 00:37:50,530 a grander vision but I do want to pull 855 00:37:54,540 --> 00:37:52,660 you back into the science game because 856 00:37:56,970 --> 00:37:54,550 that's where I think there's this gap 857 00:37:59,700 --> 00:37:56,980 there's this chasm that we have to cross 858 00:38:01,230 --> 00:37:59,710 over because I think in a way and I 859 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:01,240 really want to get your opinion on this 860 00:38:07,710 --> 00:38:04,210 because it's interesting to me that your 861 00:38:11,220 --> 00:38:07,720 research to a certain extent invalidates 862 00:38:14,190 --> 00:38:11,230 science as we know it and we can say 863 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:14,200 science is not a position it's a method 864 00:38:17,970 --> 00:38:15,610 and we can say all those other nice 865 00:38:19,590 --> 00:38:17,980 things but at the end of the day it 866 00:38:21,330 --> 00:38:19,600 seems like there's a lot of kind of 867 00:38:24,390 --> 00:38:21,340 trying to put the genie back in the 868 00:38:27,750 --> 00:38:24,400 bottle here because what your research 869 00:38:30,720 --> 00:38:27,760 suggests is it adds to this growing body 870 00:38:32,700 --> 00:38:30,730 of data that suggests we can't really 871 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:32,710 measure things in the way you think we 872 00:38:38,900 --> 00:38:35,290 can in the way that's required in 873 00:38:41,430 --> 00:38:38,910 science so we can look at Daryl BEM 874 00:38:43,500 --> 00:38:41,440 experiment famous parapsychology 875 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:43,510 experiment where he showed that college 876 00:38:49,380 --> 00:38:46,210 students can study a vocabulary test 877 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:49,390 after they take it and it'll improve the 878 00:38:54,270 --> 00:38:52,210 results before they take it or we can 879 00:38:56,700 --> 00:38:54,280 look at Dean Radin who kind of showed 880 00:38:58,920 --> 00:38:56,710 the same thing with his presentiment 881 00:39:01,230 --> 00:38:58,930 experiment where people know the future 882 00:39:03,420 --> 00:39:01,240 before they have it but when you start 883 00:39:05,910 --> 00:39:03,430 putting that together and we throw your 884 00:39:08,340 --> 00:39:05,920 research in there what I think it does 885 00:39:11,190 --> 00:39:08,350 to our worldview to our scientific 886 00:39:13,740 --> 00:39:11,200 worldview is say you know what we 887 00:39:16,950 --> 00:39:13,750 shouldn't be very sure of anything 888 00:39:19,140 --> 00:39:16,960 because we don't really know what we're 889 00:39:21,390 --> 00:39:19,150 measuring and more to the point of your 890 00:39:24,510 --> 00:39:21,400 research what I think it says to me is 891 00:39:27,390 --> 00:39:24,520 that we always have to have this X 892 00:39:30,060 --> 00:39:27,400 Factor on anything we think we know from 893 00:39:34,050 --> 00:39:30,070 science because we don't know what old 894 00:39:35,579 --> 00:39:34,060 dead Uncle Joe is doing how he fits into 895 00:39:38,519 --> 00:39:35,589 the equation 896 00:39:41,370 --> 00:39:38,529 so forget about the grander spiritual 897 00:39:43,950 --> 00:39:41,380 picture for a minute and just let's 898 00:39:46,079 --> 00:39:43,960 bring it back to science and say doesn't 899 00:39:49,769 --> 00:39:46,089 your research to a certain extent 900 00:39:52,259 --> 00:39:49,779 question the very nature of science in 901 00:40:06,150 --> 00:39:52,269 that it questions our ability to measure 902 00:40:18,150 --> 00:40:06,160 things traditional current scientific 903 00:40:21,329 --> 00:40:18,160 paradigm well wait a minute they're 904 00:40:24,059 --> 00:40:21,339 saying brain makes mind but this data 905 00:40:39,229 --> 00:40:24,069 singing mind survives when the brain is 906 00:40:45,749 --> 00:40:42,870 know oh surprise we don't know 907 00:40:47,609 --> 00:40:45,759 everything and to think that we have 908 00:40:49,579 --> 00:40:47,619 reached the edge of like oh yeah we 909 00:40:52,079 --> 00:40:49,589 understand everything about how 910 00:40:59,009 --> 00:40:52,089 consciousness and life and the universe 911 00:41:02,039 --> 00:40:59,019 works like that's just arrogant yeah it 912 00:41:04,859 --> 00:41:02,049 makes us think let's reevaluate some 913 00:41:10,999 --> 00:41:04,869 other things let's you know let's retest 914 00:41:14,279 --> 00:41:11,009 you know anything let's make let's 915 00:41:17,969 --> 00:41:14,289 really validate what is an assumption 916 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:17,979 and you know Julie you just mentioned a 917 00:41:24,380 --> 00:41:20,650 little bit ago that the goal of the wind 918 00:41:27,539 --> 00:41:24,390 bridge Institute is to look at practical 919 00:41:29,339 --> 00:41:27,549 applications for what you're discovering 920 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:29,349 and what you're finding out and I 921 00:41:34,380 --> 00:41:31,690 thought one thing that struck me both in 922 00:41:37,259 --> 00:41:34,390 the conversation we had a few years ago 923 00:41:41,130 --> 00:41:37,269 as well as in reading your book among 924 00:41:44,309 --> 00:41:41,140 mediums was the connection between this 925 00:41:47,609 --> 00:41:44,319 medium experience getting a psychic 926 00:41:48,959 --> 00:41:47,619 medium in grief and I think it touches 927 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:48,969 on a couple of things that we've talked 928 00:41:51,510 --> 00:41:49,210 about 929 00:41:54,150 --> 00:41:51,520 here one it touches on on science you 930 00:41:56,070 --> 00:41:54,160 know the mirror if you're of real strict 931 00:41:58,170 --> 00:41:56,080 materialist I mean you have problems 932 00:42:00,180 --> 00:41:58,180 with grief in general you're like what's 933 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:00,190 that just a little misfiring of your 934 00:42:06,090 --> 00:42:03,010 brain there you know we didn't fix that 935 00:42:09,540 --> 00:42:06,100 talk a little bit about what we know 936 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:09,550 about grief and what might be the 937 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:13,210 connection between grief and this kind 938 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:15,370 of anomalous communication that people 939 00:42:20,580 --> 00:42:18,370 are getting in a mediumistic reading so 940 00:42:23,070 --> 00:42:20,590 what we know about grief is that it is 941 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:23,080 ubiquitous in all cultures and in the 942 00:42:29,850 --> 00:42:25,090 animal kingdom so it is a natural 943 00:42:32,670 --> 00:42:29,860 process and most of the time like eighty 944 00:42:38,010 --> 00:42:32,680 percent of the time people get to the 945 00:42:40,460 --> 00:42:38,020 end of grief with no outside assistance 946 00:42:43,020 --> 00:42:40,470 like just with their with their natural 947 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:43,030 support system from their family and 948 00:42:49,500 --> 00:42:47,170 their community and what we also know is 949 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:49,510 that there are no stages of grief there 950 00:42:53,790 --> 00:42:52,090 are no tasks of grief that everybody 951 00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:53,800 grieves differently and however your 952 00:43:00,120 --> 00:42:56,370 grieving that's good that's good for you 953 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:00,130 and but there is a smaller percentage of 954 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:02,770 people that sort of get stuck and that 955 00:43:07,590 --> 00:43:05,170 grief is can be called traumatic grief 956 00:43:10,950 --> 00:43:07,600 or there's a lot of terms different 957 00:43:12,990 --> 00:43:10,960 terms for it and so that's the that's 958 00:43:16,470 --> 00:43:13,000 the clinical population that we would be 959 00:43:20,070 --> 00:43:16,480 interested in and not we but we as the 960 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:20,080 mental health community those are the 961 00:43:27,540 --> 00:43:22,770 that's you know 20% is that those people 962 00:43:29,670 --> 00:43:27,550 need assistance and so actually I highly 963 00:43:32,730 --> 00:43:29,680 recommend this book called the truth 964 00:43:34,610 --> 00:43:32,740 about grief and a journalist wrote it 965 00:43:37,650 --> 00:43:34,620 about 966 00:43:39,570 --> 00:43:37,660 you know she investigated what we know 967 00:43:42,290 --> 00:43:39,580 about grief and it is fascinating and 968 00:43:45,530 --> 00:43:42,300 one of the the points her name is Ruth 969 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:45,540 Davis Konigsberg I think is how you say 970 00:43:54,330 --> 00:43:48,010 and 971 00:43:56,099 --> 00:43:54,340 that the United States is one of the 972 00:43:58,410 --> 00:43:56,109 only countries that has a profession 973 00:44:01,230 --> 00:43:58,420 called grief counselor that other 974 00:44:03,270 --> 00:44:01,240 countries recognize other cultures 975 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:03,280 recognize that you don't need someone 976 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:06,970 specific to do that and that one of the 977 00:44:12,330 --> 00:44:08,530 other really important things I think is 978 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:12,340 that there's sort of this grief memoir 979 00:44:18,630 --> 00:44:14,890 culture and so people write books about 980 00:44:20,460 --> 00:44:18,640 their horrifying grieving experience and 981 00:44:22,490 --> 00:44:20,470 so people that's what we hear about and 982 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:22,500 that's what we see on TV and so people 983 00:44:28,170 --> 00:44:25,890 mistakenly think oh well that must be 984 00:44:31,859 --> 00:44:28,180 normal that must be how people grieve 985 00:44:34,740 --> 00:44:31,869 and it's not right only that if you're 986 00:44:38,670 --> 00:44:34,750 just having a natural grief process if 987 00:44:42,420 --> 00:44:38,680 you're in the 80% you don't write a book 988 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:42,430 you don't go on TV so people mistakenly 989 00:44:49,590 --> 00:44:45,090 think that these that these really 990 00:44:51,359 --> 00:44:49,600 detrimental horrible breathing 991 00:44:54,870 --> 00:44:51,369 experiences are the norm but they're not 992 00:44:58,440 --> 00:44:54,880 so that's the big piece right there but 993 00:45:01,230 --> 00:44:58,450 again we're this 20% needs assistance 994 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:01,240 and Julie let me just interject because 995 00:45:07,170 --> 00:45:03,010 back to our kind of I'm we're taking 996 00:45:10,349 --> 00:45:07,180 these very deep personal personally 997 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:10,359 meaningful topics here and we're looking 998 00:45:15,450 --> 00:45:13,690 at a very stark scientific clinical and 999 00:45:17,670 --> 00:45:15,460 that's great because I think that that 1000 00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:17,680 helps us get some distance from it but 1001 00:45:21,900 --> 00:45:19,570 on this issue of grief if we look at it 1002 00:45:24,210 --> 00:45:21,910 that way as you have it really breaks 1003 00:45:25,950 --> 00:45:24,220 down pretty nicely scientifically okay 1004 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:25,960 there's these people that report this 1005 00:45:31,410 --> 00:45:28,930 condition will call it grief we treat 1006 00:45:33,990 --> 00:45:31,420 this condition on a regular basis we 1007 00:45:36,390 --> 00:45:34,000 send them to a talking psychologist or 1008 00:45:38,250 --> 00:45:36,400 psychiatrist and that person talks Tok 1009 00:45:39,990 --> 00:45:38,260 Tok Tok Tok Tok Tok Tok and then we 1010 00:45:43,170 --> 00:45:40,000 measure afterwards and sometimes they're 1011 00:45:45,450 --> 00:45:43,180 better sometimes worth or not or we send 1012 00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:45,460 them in and they get some kind of Pharma 1013 00:45:48,990 --> 00:45:47,050 logical treatment they get these little 1014 00:45:50,849 --> 00:45:49,000 pills and they take them pop pop pop pop 1015 00:45:53,220 --> 00:45:50,859 and they either get better or they don't 1016 00:45:55,770 --> 00:45:53,230 and we measure that and I think which 1017 00:45:57,990 --> 00:45:55,780 you've suggest it is hey here are some 1018 00:46:00,450 --> 00:45:58,000 other people the report that they have 1019 00:46:01,140 --> 00:46:00,460 this reading with a medium and in the 1020 00:46:03,299 --> 00:46:01,150 same 1021 00:46:05,430 --> 00:46:03,309 we're measuring these other things and 1022 00:46:07,349 --> 00:46:05,440 we have a high love a vested interest 1023 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:07,359 and a lot of money is at stake in 1024 00:46:12,720 --> 00:46:09,970 measuring those things we can measure in 1025 00:46:15,390 --> 00:46:12,730 the same way whether or not they showed 1026 00:46:18,690 --> 00:46:15,400 any improvement in this grief experience 1027 00:46:21,900 --> 00:46:18,700 they had after a reading I mean that is 1028 00:46:23,489 --> 00:46:21,910 how it breaks down isn't it yeah and you 1029 00:46:27,769 --> 00:46:23,499 know that's my training right it's drug 1030 00:46:29,910 --> 00:46:27,779 trials and I design a protocol and it's 1031 00:46:31,349 --> 00:46:29,920 you know there's a control group and a 1032 00:46:33,269 --> 00:46:31,359 treatment group just like a drug trial 1033 00:46:36,569 --> 00:46:33,279 and except instead of a drug gets a 1034 00:46:37,950 --> 00:46:36,579 mediumship reading and I designed this 1035 00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:37,960 very specific protocol using a 1036 00:46:43,559 --> 00:46:40,930 standardized grief instrument and two 1037 00:46:45,390 --> 00:46:43,569 different funders have not found it to 1038 00:46:48,509 --> 00:46:45,400 be what they were looking for but it 1039 00:46:52,009 --> 00:46:48,519 needs to get done so we're now in the 1040 00:46:56,549 --> 00:46:52,019 process of reaching out to the public to 1041 00:46:58,200 --> 00:46:56,559 try and get support for that for that 1042 00:47:00,690 --> 00:46:58,210 study because it really needs to be done 1043 00:47:02,730 --> 00:47:00,700 and because you know the same thing with 1044 00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:02,740 like when we just want to look at the 1045 00:47:07,259 --> 00:47:06,130 validity of the mediumship information 1046 00:47:09,210 --> 00:47:07,269 we have to start at the beginning are 1047 00:47:11,249 --> 00:47:09,220 they reporting specific information 1048 00:47:12,420 --> 00:47:11,259 accurate information we have to start at 1049 00:47:14,309 --> 00:47:12,430 the beginning of this does it make 1050 00:47:17,220 --> 00:47:14,319 people feel better we did a pilot study 1051 00:47:19,349 --> 00:47:17,230 and people reported anecdotally that it 1052 00:47:21,509 --> 00:47:19,359 made them feel better and your hunch 1053 00:47:25,079 --> 00:47:21,519 your hunch from doing this research for 1054 00:47:28,349 --> 00:47:25,089 10 years in being on the frontline is 1055 00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:28,359 that as people have reported for a long 1056 00:47:34,289 --> 00:47:29,170 time 1057 00:47:36,359 --> 00:47:34,299 it does help right but we need to 1058 00:47:38,039 --> 00:47:36,369 collect this data so that we can then 1059 00:47:39,749 --> 00:47:38,049 can ask all the questions that come 1060 00:47:42,150 --> 00:47:39,759 after it who does it benefit most 1061 00:47:45,089 --> 00:47:42,160 when is it beneficial what kinds of 1062 00:47:46,859 --> 00:47:45,099 deaths are you know do people benefit 1063 00:47:48,299 --> 00:47:46,869 most from a mediumship reading and I 1064 00:47:50,339 --> 00:47:48,309 want to be clear because this really 1065 00:47:53,009 --> 00:47:50,349 rifles the feathers ruffles the feathers 1066 00:47:55,559 --> 00:47:53,019 of people in the mental health community 1067 00:47:57,089 --> 00:47:55,569 we are not under any circumstances 1068 00:47:59,430 --> 00:47:57,099 saying that mediumship reading sugar a 1069 00:48:02,579 --> 00:47:59,440 place work with a mental health 1070 00:48:06,359 --> 00:48:02,589 professional that's it's two different 1071 00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:06,369 things so you know any traditional grief 1072 00:48:13,260 --> 00:48:09,249 professional will tell you that that the 1073 00:48:16,620 --> 00:48:13,270 the purpose of the grief work 1074 00:48:18,240 --> 00:48:16,630 is to redefine the relationship and so a 1075 00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:18,250 mediumship reading is really helpful in 1076 00:48:21,990 --> 00:48:20,170 that because it lets you know that the 1077 00:48:24,300 --> 00:48:22,000 person is still around and still aware 1078 00:48:26,010 --> 00:48:24,310 of your life and still participating in 1079 00:48:28,500 --> 00:48:26,020 your relationship there just don't have 1080 00:48:31,020 --> 00:48:28,510 a body any future that I foresee that I 1081 00:48:34,250 --> 00:48:31,030 hope we get to is working together with 1082 00:48:37,290 --> 00:48:34,260 the grief community in that people can 1083 00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:37,300 grief counselors can have a list of 1084 00:48:41,550 --> 00:48:39,370 mediums that they trust and recommend 1085 00:48:43,710 --> 00:48:41,560 that they can send people to and then 1086 00:48:46,500 --> 00:48:43,720 when they you know and then that we can 1087 00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:46,510 learn when the best time is to send 1088 00:48:51,210 --> 00:48:49,210 people to a medium and then the person 1089 00:48:52,830 --> 00:48:51,220 can take what they learned in the 1090 00:48:54,510 --> 00:48:52,840 mediums burning back to the counselor 1091 00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:54,520 and they can and the counselor can help 1092 00:48:59,220 --> 00:48:57,610 them integrate the information that was 1093 00:49:00,630 --> 00:48:59,230 given during the reading because the 1094 00:49:03,510 --> 00:49:00,640 medium can't do that 1095 00:49:07,620 --> 00:49:03,520 you know she has one job and it is not 1096 00:49:09,210 --> 00:49:07,630 to counsel you it is not to it is to act 1097 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:09,220 as the medium between you and your 1098 00:49:13,410 --> 00:49:11,410 deceased person so the future that I 1099 00:49:16,470 --> 00:49:13,420 hope to see is this collaboration 1100 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:16,480 between the two populations and so we're 1101 00:49:21,510 --> 00:49:19,450 interested in working with people and 1102 00:49:23,730 --> 00:49:21,520 and I have no spoken at conferences in 1103 00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:23,740 it and a number of counselors have come 1104 00:49:28,110 --> 00:49:25,090 up to me and been very supportive and 1105 00:49:29,940 --> 00:49:28,120 there's a group called assist the 1106 00:49:31,860 --> 00:49:29,950 American Center for the integration of 1107 00:49:34,350 --> 00:49:31,870 spiritually transformative experiences 1108 00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:34,360 and they're very supportive of this idea 1109 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:38,170 too that we need to educate the mental 1110 00:49:45,720 --> 00:49:42,010 health professionals about these strange 1111 00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:45,730 kinds of experiences spontaneous or you 1112 00:49:48,900 --> 00:49:47,530 know visiting a medium or those sorts of 1113 00:49:52,980 --> 00:49:48,910 things so that those people are 1114 00:49:55,500 --> 00:49:52,990 qualified to know when it is to you know 1115 00:49:57,780 --> 00:49:55,510 like I said send you to a medium and how 1116 00:49:59,700 --> 00:49:57,790 to help you integrate what happened 1117 00:50:03,360 --> 00:49:59,710 during the reading but we have to start 1118 00:50:05,190 --> 00:50:03,370 it with does it indeed under you know 1119 00:50:07,170 --> 00:50:05,200 experimental conditions with using a 1120 00:50:10,290 --> 00:50:07,180 standardized grief instrument does it 1121 00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:10,300 make people feel better great so Julie 1122 00:50:15,630 --> 00:50:12,970 you've set up a website for the book the 1123 00:50:18,330 --> 00:50:15,640 book title again is among mediums it's 1124 00:50:20,910 --> 00:50:18,340 available on Amazon it's a great read 1125 00:50:23,460 --> 00:50:20,920 you really enjoy it it's only $4.95 on 1126 00:50:26,310 --> 00:50:23,470 Kindle you set up a website for the book 1127 00:50:26,970 --> 00:50:26,320 and also there's still the wind bridge 1128 00:50:29,310 --> 00:50:26,980 Institute 1129 00:50:31,349 --> 00:50:29,320 to website where folks can go and be 1130 00:50:33,270 --> 00:50:31,359 follow your research become a member and 1131 00:50:36,210 --> 00:50:33,280 all that stuff right right so yeah 1132 00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:36,220 people can go to among mediums calm to 1133 00:50:43,980 --> 00:50:40,090 learn more about the book and they can 1134 00:50:45,720 --> 00:50:43,990 go to wind bridge work to learn more 1135 00:50:49,020 --> 00:50:45,730 about our organization and sign up to 1136 00:50:51,270 --> 00:50:49,030 our email list to be notified when we 1137 00:50:53,670 --> 00:50:51,280 are going forward with this roof study 1138 00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:53,680 and that's nothing well it's been great 1139 00:50:58,470 --> 00:50:55,930 having it on we certainly wish you the 1140 00:51:00,780 --> 00:50:58,480 best of luck not only with the book but 1141 00:51:04,109 --> 00:51:00,790 with this very very important work that 1142 00:51:06,180 --> 00:51:04,119 you do great to talk to you and Julie 1143 00:51:07,620 --> 00:51:06,190 thanks so much for joining you thank you 1144 00:51:14,190 --> 00:51:07,630 can I say one more thing 1145 00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:14,200 of course I'm so sorry I don't have a 1146 00:51:22,290 --> 00:51:19,450 Kindle but you can you can read if 1147 00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:22,300 you're listening to this on any device 1148 00:51:27,540 --> 00:51:24,970 you can read the book on that device so 1149 00:51:30,150 --> 00:51:27,550 there are Kindle free kindle readers for 1150 00:51:31,620 --> 00:51:30,160 almost any device you can think right 1151 00:51:33,750 --> 00:51:31,630 right so you can read it right on your 1152 00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:33,760 on your notebook or your desktop or 1153 00:51:39,510 --> 00:51:36,850 whatever your phone yeah yeah and it's a 1154 00:51:42,300 --> 00:51:39,520 really fun book to read you've made it 1155 00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:42,310 very accessible you've made it very 1156 00:51:47,580 --> 00:51:45,010 personal which is great people feel like 1157 00:51:49,950 --> 00:51:47,590 they're riding right along with you and 1158 00:51:52,410 --> 00:51:49,960 I think anyone who's at all interested 1159 00:51:54,810 --> 00:51:52,420 in this topic will will really enjoy it 1160 00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:54,820 so I do hope people pick it up me too 1161 00:51:59,190 --> 00:51:57,130 thanks so much for having me Alex well 1162 00:52:01,170 --> 00:51:59,200 thanks again to dr. by shell for joining 1163 00:52:04,020 --> 00:52:01,180 us today on skeptic oh now I wanted to 1164 00:52:07,230 --> 00:52:04,030 mention to you that Julie has set up a 1165 00:52:09,900 --> 00:52:07,240 website to try and raise some money for 1166 00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:09,910 this research that she's doing this is 1167 00:52:15,150 --> 00:52:12,010 very important research looking at the 1168 00:52:18,870 --> 00:52:15,160 connection between medium readings and 1169 00:52:21,780 --> 00:52:18,880 grief the website is after life science 1170 00:52:24,330 --> 00:52:21,790 comm check that out go over there 1171 00:52:26,700 --> 00:52:24,340 if you have the financial ability see if 1172 00:52:28,710 --> 00:52:26,710 you can lend a hand to Julie to get some 1173 00:52:31,050 --> 00:52:28,720 of this important research done I'll 1174 00:52:33,750 --> 00:52:31,060 have a link up in the show notes 1175 00:52:35,700 --> 00:52:33,760 now let me tea up a couple of questions 1176 00:52:38,240 --> 00:52:35,710 from this episode and they're both 1177 00:52:40,349 --> 00:52:38,250 related to this question of grief and 1178 00:52:42,089 --> 00:52:40,359 medium readings 1179 00:52:44,009 --> 00:52:42,099 the first question would be do you think 1180 00:52:47,220 --> 00:52:44,019 it's legitimate do you think it's worthy 1181 00:52:49,559 --> 00:52:47,230 from a scientific perspective to study 1182 00:52:53,579 --> 00:52:49,569 whether or not medium readings are 1183 00:52:56,279 --> 00:52:53,589 efficacious in relieving grief is this a 1184 00:52:58,710 --> 00:52:56,289 worthy science question and how would 1185 00:53:00,509 --> 00:52:58,720 you frame such a question I think that 1186 00:53:04,019 --> 00:53:00,519 was an interesting part of the dialogue 1187 00:53:06,479 --> 00:53:04,029 with Julie is how she claims that these 1188 00:53:09,180 --> 00:53:06,489 topics which are often looked at as 1189 00:53:11,009 --> 00:53:09,190 pseudoscience are really very scientific 1190 00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:11,019 if you frame them in the right way and 1191 00:53:16,650 --> 00:53:13,690 the second question related would be 1192 00:53:18,059 --> 00:53:16,660 what are the implications of her 1193 00:53:20,339 --> 00:53:18,069 findings which are at this point in 1194 00:53:22,079 --> 00:53:20,349 preliminary but if they panned out and 1195 00:53:24,569 --> 00:53:22,089 let's say there was this provable 1196 00:53:28,140 --> 00:53:24,579 connection between medium readings 1197 00:53:31,620 --> 00:53:28,150 relieving grief for people what would 1198 00:53:33,509 --> 00:53:31,630 that mean to us from a scientific 1199 00:53:35,759 --> 00:53:33,519 perspective I mean the implication 1200 00:53:37,289 --> 00:53:35,769 seemed to go way beyond grief they seem 1201 00:53:39,180 --> 00:53:37,299 to get right at the heart of these 1202 00:53:41,460 --> 00:53:39,190 issues that we talk so much about in 1203 00:53:44,430 --> 00:53:41,470 terms of fundamentally whether we are a 1204 00:53:47,220 --> 00:53:44,440 biological robot whether mind equals 1205 00:53:51,299 --> 00:53:47,230 brain or whether we are something more 1206 00:53:53,430 --> 00:53:51,309 is this paradigm busting research I look 1207 00:53:55,499 --> 00:53:53,440 forward to your thoughts on that and of 1208 00:54:00,029 --> 00:53:55,509 course the place to do that is at The 1209 00:54:02,190 --> 00:54:00,039 Skeptical website ske P tik Oh from 1210 00:54:04,499 --> 00:54:02,200 there you can link on over to our forums 1211 00:54:06,359 --> 00:54:04,509 enjoying the conversation there or leave 1212 00:54:09,479 --> 00:54:06,369 a comment right on the web site of 1213 00:54:11,729 --> 00:54:09,489 course you can also reach me on Facebook 1214 00:54:13,380 --> 00:54:11,739 or through email also through the 1215 00:54:16,019 --> 00:54:13,390 website and while you're there you can 1216 00:54:18,569 --> 00:54:16,029 check out all of our over 200 previous 1217 00:54:20,849 --> 00:54:18,579 episodes of skeptic Oh we'll have a 1218 00:54:23,339 --> 00:54:20,859 number of interesting shows coming up 1219 00:54:25,710 --> 00:54:23,349 we're going to look back at medium 1220 00:54:27,989 --> 00:54:25,720 research of a hundred years ago with 1221 00:54:32,279 --> 00:54:27,999 Michael Tim and look at a fascinating 1222 00:54:34,650 --> 00:54:32,289 new book from dr. Julia Asante so stay 1223 00:54:37,019 --> 00:54:34,660 with us for all of that I do appreciate 1224 00:54:38,999 --> 00:54:37,029 you joining me for these shows for the 1225 00:54:40,979 --> 00:54:39,009 community that we create and for the 1226 00:54:43,349 --> 00:54:40,989 connections that I've made through these 1227 00:54:46,769 --> 00:54:43,359 shows so again thanks for joining me on